HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007-10-22 MINUTES
City of Cottage Grove
Planning Commission
October 22, 2007
Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, a regular meeting of the Planning Commission was duly
held at City Hall, 7516 – 80th Street South, Cottage Grove, Minnesota on the 22nd day of October
2007, in the Council Chambers and telecast on local Government Cable Channel 16.
Call to Order
Chairperson Thiede called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
Roll Call
Members Present: Ken Brittain, Tina Folch-Freiermuth, Obid Hofland, Steve Messick,
Tracy Poncin, Chris Reese, David Thiede, Chris Willhite
Staff Present: Howard Blin, Community Development Director
John McCool, Senior Planner
Mark Grossklaus, City Council
Approval of Agenda
Reese made a motion to approve the agenda. Folch seconded. Motion approved unani-
mously (8-0 vote).
Open Forum
Chairperson Thiede asked if anyone wished to address the Planning Commission on any non-
agenda item. No one addressed the Commission.
Chair’s Explanation of the Public Hearing Process
Chairperson Thiede explained the purpose of the Planning Commission, which serves in an
advisory capacity to the City Council, and that the City Council makes all final decisions. In ad-
dition, he explained the process of conducting a public hearing and requested that any person
wishing to speak should come to the microphone and state their full name and address for the
public record.
Public Hearings and Application Reviews
6.1 Historic Conditional Use Permit: Thao House – Case CUP07-058
Dr. Xoua Thao and See Vang Thao have applied for an historic conditional use permit to
allow construction of a new house and allow the existing historic home to remain on the
three-acre parcel at 9912 – 70th Street South.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22, 2007
Page 2 of 8
Blin summarized the planning staff report and recommended approval subject to the conditions
stipulated in the staff report.
Hofland asked where the Cedarhurst mansion is located in relation to the ghost plat. Blin
stated that the mansion would be at least 400 feet east and would be separated by trees and
landscaping.
See Vang Thao, 9912 – 70th Street South, stated that they are looking forward to building a
new home on their property. She explained that the house is too small for them, their four chil-
dren, and their grandmother. She stated that they don’t want to move to another location be-
cause Cedarhurst is their property as well and they want to continue to help their brother and
sister-in-law maintain the mansion, which requires a lot of upkeep. Dr. Xoua Thao explained
that they have done some renovations to the existing home and that it also is historic, so they
do not want to tear down this house to build another. He stated that the property consists of
three acres. He stated that they intend to use that house for a library.
Folch asked about the potential future development and if they intend to sell the other parcels.
Thao stated that their intention is to build a house on one of the future lots. He explained that
when they applied for the historic conditional use permit they were asked to provide a sketch of
a potential future use of the property, but at this point they have no plans to subdivide. Blin
stated that was staff’s suggestion so that the house would not be located in an area that would
preclude possible future subdivision.
Thiede asked what effect future subdivision have on Cedarhurst. Thao responded that there
are mature trees all along the east property line. Thiede asked what was behind the mansion
on the Cedarhurst property. Blin displayed an aerial photo of the site that shows trees and a
few outbuildings behind the mansion. Thiede asked where single-family housing would be lo-
cated according to the East Ravine plan. Blin responded that the area on the west side of the
property is guided low density residential and this property is guided medium density, so if it
were to develop in the future, lower density would be consistent with what is planned for the
property to the west. Thiede noted that the commercial areas were around the intersection of
70th Street, Keats Avenue, and Military Road. Blin responded that the Cedarhurst property is
guided for commercial because it is a commercial use, but all of the other commercial areas
are on the east side of Keats on either side of 70th Street. Thiede asked if the proposals to
date for higher density housing were located further to the north. Blin responded yes. Thiede
then asked based on how this property and the surrounding properties are guided if this area
would tie into future neighborhoods. Blin stated that was correct.
Thiede opened the public hearing. No one spoke. Thiede closed the public hearing.
Reese made a motion to recommend approval of the historic conditional use permit
subject to the conditions listed below. Brittain seconded the motion.
1. The property shall be placed on the City Historic register.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22, 2007
Page 3 of 8
2. The property owner shall be responsible for all public and private infrastructure im-
provement and connection costs associated with servicing the property with public
utilities.
3. The existing residence may be allowed to remain on private well and septic as long
as it is properly maintained and functioning. Upon connection to public utilities, the
well and septic shall be abandoned in accordance with Washington County require-
ments.
4. A park dedication fee shall be paid at the time of the issuance of a new building per-
mit, and at the rate applicable at the time of issuance.
5. The access to the new home shall be through the existing driveway on 70th Street.
6. Future subdivision of the property shall require the 70th street drive to be aban-
doned and a new access created of a future local road from the west.
7. The design of the new structures on the property will be reviewed by City staff for
compatibility with the existing architecture of Cedarhurst.
Motion passed unanimously (8-to-0 vote).
6.2 Zoning Code Amendment: Landscape Ordinance – Case TA07-045
The City of Cottage Grove has applied for a text amendment to amend the minimum land-
scaping requirements of the City Code. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure multi-
family, institutional, commercial, office, and industrial projects provide enough open space
within their property. (Continued from 9/24/07)
McCool summarized the planning staff report and recommended approval.
Willhite asked if grassy areas would be including in the landscaping requirements. McCool
responded that would be part of the open space.
Thiede asked if there are open space requirements in other parts of the city code. McCool re-
sponded nothing for commercial or industrial areas. Thiede stated that the proposed landscape
ordinance looks complex and asked if a business could have less than the minimum require-
ments. McCool responded that they could apply for a variance. Thiede asked if there should be
minimum requirements or could these just be guidelines. McCool responded that the proposed
ordinance will be much easier to calculate than the way the city has done in the past.
Willhite asked about the sustainability of the trees and shrubs. McCool responded that Brook-
lyn Park had done calculations of maturity sizes and how many plantings were appropriate for
the area being landscaped. Blin stated that basically at maturity about 70 percent of the land-
scaped area would be shaded by trees, noting that this was developed after consultation with
horticulturalists and tree experts.
Thiede opened the public hearing. No one spoke. Thiede closed the public hearing.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22, 2007
Page 4 of 8
Willhite made a motion to recommend approval of the zoning amendment to the land-
scape ordinance. Brittain seconded.
Motion passed unanimously (8-to-0 vote).
6.3 Zoning Code Amendment: Dynamic Signs – Case TA07-055
The City of Cottage Grove has applied for a zoning text amendment to amend City Code
Title 9-8, Signs and Billboards, to prohibit dynamic signs. (Continued from 9/24/07)
Blin summarized the planning staff report and recommended approval.
Brittain asked if flashing dynamic signs in windows would be prohibited. Blin responded yes.
Willhite stated that she did some research on this issue. In Hastings the ordinance allows signs
that could be electronically changed, but they do not allow flashing, scrolling, or turning signs
except at the movie theater. She does agree that if billboards change frequently, such as every
30 seconds or less, it is annoying and can be dangerous. She also reviewed a survey that was
done by the Federal Highway Administration in Nevada, Utah, Texas, New York, New
Hampshire, and Massachusetts that reported there was no evidence of increased traffic safety
problems directly related to the installation of electronic signs and displays in their city centers
and along their highways. The survey did not list how often the signs changed. She then asked
if highway department signs for things such as road construction, detours, and Amber Alerts
would be allowed. Blin responded that those signs are excluded from the prohibition along with
gas station price signs.
Thiede asked if the signs that would not be allowed were lit or just ones those that are lit and
can change. Willhite stated that the consensus was to not allow billboards but signs in win-
dows that are not flashing would be allowed. Blin stated that essentially the definition of
dynamic display is any kind of sign that has the appearance of movement or change whether
electronic or mechanical. That would include the older electronic display signs and message
boards and the newer LED television screen billboards, which was the impetus for this ordi-
nance amendment. He does agree with Willhite that there are mixed results from the studies
that have been done, however, the studies she referenced primarily dealt with message signs
and the FHWA is now doing a study on the LED billboards. Thiede asked if the ordinance
would disallow barber poles. Reese noted that there was an exception for barber poles and
time and temperature signs. Blin stated that when the sign ordinance is rewritten, it is intended
to meld some of the definitions together.
Folch asked if the ordinance would not allow for any kind of motion, but would allow for a black
sign with static lighted lettering in a store window. Blin stated that was correct.
Willhite stated that she would only ban that type of sign for billboards but believes that reader
board pylon signs for businesses are fine as long as they are not moving. She does not believe
they are any more distracting than other signs. Blin responded that the only electronic signs
allowed would be gas station price signs or in a window of a business. Willhite stated that she
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22, 2007
Page 5 of 8
believes electronic reader board signs more attractive and easier to see, so she disagrees with
prohibiting them.
Brittain disagreed, stated that he does not find them attractive or adds value. He then stated
that school signs are not as needed as they used to be as there are other avenue for commu-
nicating with students and parents, such as through e-mail.
Poncin agreed with Brittain. She also does not think those signs are aesthetically attractive so
she would like to see them limited or banned.
Thiede asked if businesses could have a time and temperature sign. Blin responded that under
this proposal they would be allowed, but it is rare these days to see them on banks.
Reese stated that he does not like the dynamic billboards but does not see a problem with
electronic non-motion reader board signs.
Thiede opened the public hearing. No one spoke. Thiede closed the public hearing.
Folch stated that she sees the dynamic signs as a public safety issue, especially on roadways
with speed limits over 45 miles per hour. She asked if the League of Minnesota Cities report
looked at only limiting dynamic signs on higher speed roadways. Blin does not recall anything
that addressed speed in the report.
Brittain stated that typically on a higher speed roadway, there are no stop signs or stop lights,
but slower speed roads have more distractions for drivers.
Willhite stated that the city cannot regulate all distractions and drivers have the responsibility to
pay attention while driving. She believes that our community should be able to advertise, and
the city should only regulate things such as lighting and size. She also finds that non-LED
signs are harder to read.
Thiede stated that he does not see much difference between electronic and non-electronic
reader board signs. Blin explained that one issue with electronic signs is the brightness factor
or luminosity, and while it is possible to regulate the number of lumines that a sign emits, it is
difficult.
Brittain stated the LEDs are very directional. A back lit sign, such as the high school sign, uses
a very diffused soft type of broadcast light with respect to luminosity.
Messick stated that the reason for the ordinance amendment is due to the moratorium on dy-
namic billboards, which have been installed in other parts of the metro area. He thinks it is
good forward thinking by staff and the City Council to look at the issue of dynamic signs, but he
does not see a problem in the city.
Brittain stated that he would support the changes being discussed. He explained that elec-
tronic reader board signs are currently prohibited.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22, 2007
Page 6 of 8
Messick asked about the Walgreen’s sign. Blin explained that the Walgreen’s sign did not
comply with the ordinance at the time. He stated that the ordinance is a little vague, noting that
there is a prohibition on flashing and motion signs and that has been interpreted to prohibit all
electronic reader board signs. Willhite pointed out that the Walgreen’s sign is located at a very
busy intersection and it has not been the cause of the accidents that happen there.
Folch stated that signs with a black backdrop and red lettering are very difficult to read, and
asked if there could be language specific enough to only allow black backdrop with white let-
tering and certain font sizes. She stated that electronic reader board signs can be a good way
for municipal governments and schools to communicate with the public. She believes the
Commission has had a good discussion on this difficult issue, noting that if the city bans those
types of sign, it limits the community’s ability to convey information to the public in what is be-
coming a more viable technology.
Willhite asked if the Planning Commission could vote on the portion of the ordinance banning
dynamic billboards and then have further discussions on reader board signs. Blin responded
that could be done.
Reese stated that would accept the definition change of dynamic display, which then prohibits
any type of lighted sign. Willhite stated that the definition could be changed to only billboards.
Brittain would recommend since electronic reader board signs are currently prohibited, the
Commission should just recommend approval of the proposed amendment due to the morato-
rium that will expire soon, and in the future discuss possibly allowing reader board signs.
Reese asked if the billboards along Highway 61 are nonconforming. McCool responded yes.
Blin stated that those three existing billboards could be converted to dynamic signs. Willhite
stated that due to their non-conforming status, the city should be able to prohibit that. Blin sug-
gested applying the prohibition on dynamic signs to only off-premise advertising, which is a
billboard. He then asked if the Commission wanted to follow Brittain’s suggested approach to
approve the ordinance amendment, which would continue the prohibition on all electronic
signs, and look at amending the ordinance further in the future to possibly allow other types of
electronic signs.
Willhite stated that she does not want to prohibit reader board signs at all.
Brittain stated that he does not want to change the proposed ordinance. He suggested that
when the sign ordinance is revisited that an exception on electronic reader board signs should
be made for public institutions, expressing concern that every business would put one up.
Reese stated that that exception cannot be made. Blin responded that this is a preview of the
difficulty in amending the entire sign ordinance. He stated that the city can only regulate the
type, size, and luminosity of the sign but not the content or whether it is a non-profit, public or
for-profit entity.
Reese stated that he does not believe most businesses would immediately adopt a reader
board sign, and one of the ways these signs can be regulated for incoming businesses is
through their sign package. Messick stated that another approach could be limiting the size of
dynamic signs to what is common for reader board signs.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22, 2007
Page 7 of 8
After further discussion, it was the consensus of the Commission that if the proposed ordi-
nance is recommended for approval, the Commission would like to review the issue of elec-
tronic reader board signs in the near future.
Reese asked when the Commission would start looking at rewriting the sign ordinance. Blin
responded the first meeting of next year, and the process would probably take several months.
Reese asked if staff wants direction before the Commission starts reviewing the ordinance.
Brittain suggested a workshop. Blin asked if the Commission wanted to have a broader dis-
cussion on signs. The Commission concurred.
Messick made a motion to recommend approval of the zoning amendment to the sign
ordinance prohibiting dynamic signs. Brittain seconded. Motion passed on a 7-to-1 vote
(Willhite).
Willhite explained that she voted against this type of ordinance amendment in the past and is
not ready to change her mind. She believes the ordinance is too restrictive.
Discussion Items
7.1 Corner Lot Visibility
McCool summarized his memorandum regarding corner lot visibility in response to a question
from the Commission at the last meeting. The Commission discussed whether there should be an
amendment to city code that would affect existing corner properties with trails or sidewalks or for
future trail installations. It was their consensus that the issue should be addressed by the city and
developers for future installations. Blin summarized that when new trails and sidewalks are built
or the city retrofits existing streets with trails, that the trail design should be looked at and possibly
have the trail curve towards the curb at intersections to give a little more space between the
trail/sidewalk and the property line.
Blin reported to the Commission about an Environmental Impact Study being done by Aggregate
Industries on their proposed mining operation in the back waters of the river channel by Lower
Grey Cloud Island.
Approval of Planning Commission Minutes of September 24, 2007
Being that there were no corrections to the September 24, 2007, minutes, they were
accepted as distributed.
Reports
9.1 Recap of October City Council Meetings
Blin reviewed the items discussed by the City Council at their October 3 and 17, 2007,
meetings.
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October 22, 2007
Page 8 of 8
9.2 Response to Planning Commission Inquiries
None.
9.3 Planning Commission Requests
Thiede asked about the lighting at the auto marshalling yard, noting there is still quite a bit of
glare. Blin stated that he spoke with them a couple months ago.
Adjournment
Reese made a motion to adjourn the meeting. Hofland seconded. Motion passed unani-
mously and the meeting adjourned at 9:04 p.m.