HomeMy WebLinkAbout2013-12-04 PACKET 04.A.i.REQU�ST OF' CITY COUNClL ACTION COUNCIL AGENDA
ME�TING 1TEM # •
DATE � 2/4/13 o j
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PREPARED BY: Public Works Les Burshfen
QRIGINATING DEPARTMENT STAFF AUTH�R
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COUNClL, ACTION REQUEST
Accepfi and place on file the minutes of the September 16, 20�3 PublicVllor[cs Commission
meeting.
STAFF RECOMM�NI�ATI�N
Approve the September 16, 2a13 minutes of the Public Warks Commission.
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� �TH�R: Appraved minutes of the Septem�er 16, 2013 PWC Me�ting
ADMIN[STRATORS COMMENTS
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COUNCIL ACTI�N TAKEN: ❑ APPROVED [� DEMED ❑ 4THER
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Septernber '16, 20'13
Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, a meeting of the Public Works Cammission of
Gottage Grove was duly hefd at Cottage Grove City Half, 12800 Ravine Parkway,
Cottage Grove, IViinnesota on Monday, September �6, 20� 3 afi 7:00 pm.
1. CALL TO ORDER
Commissian Chair Tony Jurgens called the meeting to order at 7:00 p.m.
2. ROLL CALL
Members Present:
Members Abs�nt;
Tony Jurgens, Michael Edman, Matthew Forshee,
Jeff Podofl, Michael Smith
Andrea Cloutier, Peter Black
Staff Pr�sent: . Les Burshten, Director of PubJic Works
Harry Taylor, Public Works Supervisor
Gary �rloif, Street Department Fareman
Rick Alt, Utility Department Foreman
Adam Moshier, Specia! Project lntern
Also Present;
3, APPROVE MINUTES
Council Member Dave Thiede sitting in for Justin Olsen this
evening.
Motion made by Jeff !'odoll, seconded by Michael Smith, to a��rove the August 99,
2013 minutes. Mofiion was unanimously carried.
4. ADDITIONAL AGENDA lTEMS
None
Agenda will �tand appraved.
Public Works Commission
September 16, 20�3 — Page 2
5. NEViI BUSINESS
A. Residential Waste Hauler Discussion � Adam Moshi�r, Spec�al Projects
In�ern
Chair Tony Jurgens stafed informafiion was rec�ived for review by the Commission and
Special Prajects lnt�rn, Adam Moshier, wi[1)ead tonight`s discussion.
"Cood Evening Mr. Chair and Members of th� Cammission. My name is Adam Moshier,
I'm the Specia( Projecfs intern for the City. Tonight I'll be talking about the possibility af
expanding the number of residanfial salid wasfie hau(ers in fhe City af Cottage Grove."
Current Hauling System
Cottage Grove current[y has three licensed residenfia) solid wasfie haulers: Tennis
Sanitation, Tennis Brothers Sanitation and Waste Management, Cotfiage Grave has
licensed three solid waste haulers sinc� January 21, 2004, !n 2004, it was the Cify
Atfiorney's assessment that Tennis Brothers Sanitation and Tennis Sanitation could both
hold licenses without any legal issues or conaerns.
Im�act of Garba eq Trucks on the Road
The Minnesata Department of Transportatian utilizes a formu[a indicating one garbage
truck is equal to 1,D00 car trips. The City of F'alcon Heights conducted a study in 200�4
developing estimates of the percentage af road impact due to garbage trucks versus
typical car traffic in a range of streets with differenfi frequencies. The study concluded a
h�avily traveled area was impacted only 7.79°!o percenfi from garbage firucks whereas a
low traveled area was impacted as high as 85°/o from garbage trucks. Overall, th�
streets and al[eys that received the most dramatic impac# are fihose that received the
least amounf of vehicle use, which are your resid�ntial streefs.
Anofher sfiudy was completed by fihe City of Oakdale in 2009, lt was estimated that
changing from five haulers to one hauler would conservatively represent a 4% annua[
str�et maint�nance cost savings. The City estimates savings at a minimum of $120,000
to over $300,000 p�r year in long�term maintenance costs.
A study was also dane by the City of hoseville in 2002, Roseville estimated the cost �o
reconstruct one mile ofi a sev�n fion street at approximatefy $5�0 thousand dollars. The
Rosevill� �ngineer estimated the raads would lasfi 5 to 10 years langer if garbage truc[c
traffic was limited from their current system of eight haulers. The reduced road
maintenance was �s�imated to save the homeowner $2Q to $A�0 c{ollars per year and
this equates to $'188,000 to $376,000 c{ollars savings per year for th� City of Roseville.
Public Works Cc�mmission
Sepf�mber 16, 2013 — Page 3
Vice Chair Edman asked, "Are those 2013 numbers or 2002 numbers?" to whic}�
Moshier responded fhe figures were fram 2002. Edman also inquired "What number
do they recammend the reduction to if they had eight haulers?" Moshier responded they
reduced it down to one.
Mashier went an to state another study was conducted �n 1992 by the University of
Michigan Transport�tion Research [nsfitute. Obviously #he study is a little older,
however it in�icat�d repeated starting and sfoppin� will increase damage to streets by
50% to 100%. This, of course, depends on the speed of the truck and the weighfi ofi the
vehicle. When garbage trucks have fewer stops, they fend to travel faster in between
their stops, whereas a garbage truck wifh a lot of stops creeps up to their next trash
pick- up. �xpanding to allow adc�itiona! haulers could increase the damage to roads.
More trucks will be making less frequenfi stops th�refore firaveling faster between their
pickups.
In consideratian af those sfiudies, it is p�rhaps sa�e ta say garbage, recycling and yard
waste trucks have an impact on the road infrastructure. Adding another haul�r would
only incre�se the impact on Cottag� Grove Roads and would not b� wortt� long term
maintenance costs associated with the addition af anoth�r hauler.
Safety and )ncreased Garbaqe Truck Traffic
If fhe City were ta expand to four licensed haulers, it would increase traffic during the
morning haurs and wauld also increase safety hazards for childr�n waifiing far bus
trartsportation in #he morning and then after being dropped off in the af#ernoon.
Additionafly, there wauld be an increased risk fior traffic accidents on residential stre�ts
and increase pollution in the air from the addition of fhe fihree trucks. Edman asked,
"Where did you get fhe data tha# sfated there was an incr�ased safety hazard to
children?" Adam r�sponded the information was online from the various studies
conducted along with information provided by the Minnesofia Pollution Confral Agency.
Edman added cities around us have a lot mare fihan thre� haufers. "ls if fair to say fihey
all have an increased safety risk to fiheir children on the sfreets?" Adam r�p[ied the data
was gathere� from the Analysis of Waste Co(lection Service Agreement campleted by
the Minnesota Po(lution Control Agency and would say "Yes, thsre would be an
increased safety risk to children." Edman wandered haw they quantify increased
hazard to childrsn. Tony Jurgens stafed, "I don't need a repQr� to fell me increased
traffiic is an increased safety hazard wh�ther ifi's a school bus, a car or a garbage firuck.
It doesn't mean anything bad has happened, bufi ifi increases the �ossibility." �dman
continued to state, "[ guess I would say if we're going to say for example, an extra
garbage tr�rck would increas� traffic accidents as it r�lated to streets, I woulci want fa
know how many firafFic accidents in residential areas have involved a garbag� truGk in
Cottag� Grove in the lasfi nin� y�ars, that's fair...seeing how many children have been
involved in an �ccident with a garbage truck. I want to make decisions on data, not on
speculatinn".
Public Works Commission
September 16, 2013 �- Page 4
Adam Mashier indicated, "Again, MnDQT said fhat one garbage #ruck is equal tn �,000
car trips and expanding to allow a fou�th hauler would add an estimated 3,000 extra car
trips per week if eaah hauler has three trucks {garbage, recycling and yard waste). The
yard waste trucks ar�n't going in fihe sfireets year round. As you can see, Wnodbury
and Eagan have seven haulers and that equa�s to an extra 21,000 car trips per week
and obviously daes have an impact an the streets. Edman stated "]f adding a truck
adds 3,a0� car trips a week ta a streefi and the street is av�ra�ing 9,000 car firips a
week now, thafi's a substantia( increase. If the sfireefi has 30,000 car trips a week, th�n
it's a much smaller increase. Each road woufd be different. Withou# knowing the
average number we currently have, I would like t� see fhaf as a percentage".
"This is a table", stated Adam, "showing the total ac#ive accounts of Tennis Brothers
Sanitation (237), Tennis Sanitation {8,354) and Waste Management {482), totaling
9,073. Numbers were taken from the 2013 [icense renewals. 95% o� Coffage Grove
Residents utilize Tennis Sanitation or Tennis Brothers Sanitation. Tennis Sanifiatian
and Tenn�s Brothers Sanifiation do not overlap rautes wh�ch cut down the possible
amount of garbage recycling/yard wasfe firucks down a single road from nine to six,"
"How many homes are in Coftage Grove?" asked Edman, to which Moshier respanded
there are approximately 91,000 househalds. Edman said, "So we have 2,000
households, or 20% that don't have a[icensed garbage haufer? Does anyone know
why?" L.es Burshten respond�d, "There could be multi-family homes, apartmenfs anc[
townhomes and fihings like that that couCd or could nat �e included in the reports w� get
farm the garbage haulsrs, We are assuming a good portion ofi those �re multi- family or
perhaps same residants do nat have resid�ntial, but 1 don't know that for a facfi."
Commission M�mber Jeff Podoll said "I know one of my neighbors has worked in
construction for the last 30 years he just brings his garbage to th� wherev�r job site he
is at", Edman stated the numb�r is a warning we may have 20% of people in fiown
not having garbage pic3cup. "Cou[d that be illegal dumping or peop[e sharing haulers?
l.ike I said, the num'ber is so big that I can't explain it all away."
Sofid Wast� Hauler Rafies
Moshier stated when the hauiers were contacted `m or around the Ci#y of Cottage Crove
to provide �heir average rates, haulers were asked to supply th�ir garbage/reayciing
rafes combined for al[ various sized containers. The rates were then split into two
categories: base rafe and the full rate. The base rate does not include any gas
surcharges, special fees, county or state tax. The full ra#e is the tatal cost fio the
customer including everything. There were same difficulties obtaining all so(id waste
hauler rates, however, various haulers did not want th�ir rates public. To accomrnodate
fiheir request, they ar� represenfied as Hauter A, 8 and C and that spreadsheet is
provided in th� packet. Also, various haulers decided na# #o provide their fulf rate as it
Public Works Commission
September 16, 2013 -� Page 5
was not public information, some did not respond afi all and those spaces were shaded
in black in the spreadsheet provided to you in fihe packet,
Difficult�n Obfiaining Accurate Solid Waste Haul�r Rates
Many factors go into was#e hauler rates, inc[uding differenf introduc�ory offers and
contrac#s thaE can affect the rate, stated Adam. The staff was also able to obtain a€ew
hauler invoices farm customers and the rates that were on the in�oice did not match up
with the rates the hauler had given the City. [n other cases, the rates did match up far
differenf haul�rs. This is just one example how rafies change from resid�nt to resident.
Avera�e Hauler Rate in Cottage Grove
Staff wanted ta gef a more accurat� a�er�ge for Caftage Grove residents. V1(ith Tennis
Brothers and Tennis Sanitation ho[ding J5% of the accaunts and Was�e Management
holding approximat�ly 5%, staff was a�[e to find fihe average using the total number of
accounts h�ld by each company and. #he rate th�y �rovided the Ci#y. It was found
Cottage Grave's rates are competitive within a dollar of the average rates. Adding
another hauler to the mix would not dramatically change thes� numbers and counteract
the impact actditionaf #rucks would ha�e on the roadways,
Ov�r�ll, the addifiion of anofiher hauler appears to be impractical. Adding another hauler
would increase emissions, decrease aesth�ticS, add truck firaffic and create additional
safe#y hazards to the City. Our current system works adequately and two of fhe current
haulers do not overiap routes which saves deterioration of the raads. The current
system also limits the tofial number of trucks on any given street.
The ordinance was changed to only aflow three haulers in order to r�duce wear and fiear
an the roads. Using MnDOT's formula of one garbage truck equals 1,000 car trips, it
doesn't make sense to add another hauier. That would add up ta 3,000 extra car trips to
our roads per week which would increase road damag�. The rates haulers are charging
Cottage Grove are competitive with ofiher cities. In consideratEOn of the afiorementianed
information, it is suggested fihe Cornmission deny expanding the number of residential
waste haulers.
Tony Jurgens said, "At the Iast Council meeting, Council IVlember Lehrke brought up
this topic and clarified his point in the motion h� mad� back in April. [ think it was, in
his mind, pretty specific should we increas� the number af haulers in Cattage Grove,
The packet of information $hows that fhis was nat anything new and was discussed in
2004 by the Public 1Norks Commissian, Council and City Attorn�y afi that time. Hsr (the
Ci#y Attorney's) opinian was thafi Tennis Brathers and Tennis Sanitation are twa
separate, legaf companies. They aren'# overlapp�ng routes righ# now so as a citiz�n,
depending on where you live, you hav� �he choice �f two haul�rs, At any fime I wou(d
assume then, tell me if Pm wrong, in your opinion, Adam or Les, if either of those
companies wanted to, th�y coufd start competing. There's nothing in the City
Public Warks Commission
September 'i6, 2013 — Page 6
Ordinance that does nnt allow them fio compete for the other rautes, is fhat accurate?"
Adam respanded that it was. Jurg�ns went on to state, "So, it's fheir business choice
whether they wan� Tennis Brofihers Sanitation serving the rural areas of Coftage Grove
and T�nnis Sanitatian on the residential, hut at any time one of those companies cauld
sell their I�cense to XYZ Company that cauld compe#e for all of the business. They could
make that d�termination thems�lves, isn't that right?" Adam responded, "Yes". Chair
Tony Jurgens inquired if anyone had any questions, Edman stated, "`Mr. Chair, is it
reasonable to expect Tennis to enter competition against themselves if they have the
same place of business, same regisfered addr�ss? 1 know it's � separate, legal entity
but if the point of hauing three haufers is #o ha�e three peopl� competing with each
ather, based on whaf you are showing us here, r�at only da they not compete on price,
it's �xactly the same, but they don'fi even pre��nd to overlap and campete against each
other for the same hous�holds. Is that whafi this data shows?" Edman asked, "Do we
know the perc�nt breakdown of our homes that �re 30-36 gaHon versus 60 versus 90?"
Adam responded h� did r�ot. Edman stated "Your report characterizes Cottage Grave
rate as competitive. Is it fair to say they are al�o the most expensive?"
Adam stated, "I would say that fhey are competitive. Based on th� firsfi go round when
w� tabu[ated the average from al[ of our haulers in town, we were more on the tap end,
but keeping in mind all the fhings I've said with the inaccuracies of this s#udy, ther�'s so
much that goes into a waste hauler rafe, The only way ta really find the average for
the Ci#y o�F Cottage Grove from the waste haulers would be ta go to every sing[e
resident and ask them for their invoice. And you would have to do the same for every
single city as well." Edman indicatec{ that out of 9 cities, Cotfiage Grove has the most
expensive hauler rates in every category adding that Woodbury is a fiair comparison to
our City and Cottage Grove's rates are 15°/a more exp�nsive than Woodbury. "Vtlould
you characteriz� 15% as more expensive or competitive7" Adam stated he would not,
but comparir�g the av�rage that we tabulated, using Waste Management's rates and
Tennis' rates and dividing thase up with the percentage of accounts fh�y had, we were
able to �et a b�tter avsrage for the City of Cottage Grove. Edm�n said, "The average
from the ath�r citi�s does not have the same benefit af weighted average." Adam
res�onded "the weighted average that they did furn out, th� differenc� would be $1.04,
$1.'i4 and $2.73 so it`s about $.2Q to $.40 cenfis higher wh[ch isn't much compared to
the other cities, using that Cottage Grove average."
Edman sfated "We're still the most expensive, especially in the 60-6� gallan with a
weighted average. Am I not the only one that's alarmed by thafi, fihat we are the mosf
expensive?"
Commission Member JefF Podoll stated, "['m nofi. This ordinance is working the way we
s�t it up back in '88. V1(h�n we started the Pavement Management program, we wanted
Public Works Commission
September 96, 2013 -- Page 7
to limit the amount of haulers in order to do as [ittle damage as possible to the new
roads that we are sinking mill�ons of doliars into. It'a a couple bucks more far yaur
residential hauler rafie, but haw much mare are your taxes going ta go up for street
r�cansfiruction7 The thing is; if there's that much of a problem, the peaple shau[d say
som�thing abouf it. There are 9,000 accounts out there and if there are 4,000 that say
we want another person, fine. ! have never heard of anybody wanting that. In 2004 it
was Sandy Shiely that brought it up and now it's Derrick Lehrke. No one else has every
breached this stuff. I gu�ss, like ( said, it's working the way ifi's supposed to. Back fihen
in '88 there wer� 6 or 7 haulers, they went out of business and it slbwfy went down to
where it's at now."
"Adding an extra hauler," asked 1Vlatthew Forshee "What would that do to the life
expectancy of the roads7 Would they need to b� done two years earlier? Three? Five?
Ten?" Burshten said, "I c{on'Y {mow thafi we could answer thafi today. We haven't done
enough sfiudies on that. We're just basing it on what other communities hav� looked at.
Commissioner Edman talked about percentage of haulers in thes� tawns too. If you laok
at same of the lower rafies of fhese other towns, [ don't know what percer�tage they
carry so that could affect the average a little bit. When looking at the chart, if yau go to
6,Q00 trips per day, thafi's one of the lowest. We're are [ooking a# our rates right now but
you are nofi laoking at trips, so the way tt's set up right now, we're trying to be neufiral an
this and that's what we want to do. The way the system is s�t up is Kind of lifce a single
hauler system in some areas buf there are two and some of the areas they've split that
out, only two trucks which he pla�ed the six trucks thraughout the town so in fihafi
regard, it's better #han some and a fot better than most to tell yau' the truth. I can'#
answer that question and in order to get a lot of this information, ther�'s a lot of data that
has to be compiled and some decisions have to be made in that regard too and it took
long enough just to gefi this report and we're wiffing to do that, bufi I can't answer that
tonight."
Cammission Member Forshee said, "Just looking at the numbers and seeing how many
trips per day, this is going fio show on the road, I think that's a pretty impor�ant piece of
informatian. To me, you're kind of jusfi fihrowing out numbers. I would like to see what it
actually does to the road."
"Mr. Chair", sfiat�d Smith, "In looking at the report myself, 1 would concur that fhere's
numerous reports thafi are being us�d as evidence to support thafi fife expectancy of the
roads wil[ be diminished and those are based on sfiudies that hav� tak�n place in the
past, but there's no evid�nce within the report fhat actual[y has any hard data that is
factual, it's just hypathesis. [t's a r�sult afi more garbage trucks an the road diminishing
the life af that road. To be ab[e to have a comparison of different communities, maybe
wifhin on� co�`nmunity, a policy of rotafiion, would be helpful. This is, as I read it, snme
camments, mor� traffic, more wear, buf there's no hard data on the bacK end to support
what's b�ing reported."
Public Worics Commission
Sepfem�er 16, 2�13 — Page 8
Vice Chair �dman stated, "Les, the �roblem I hav� is that #his is a de facto single hauler
that we are disguising as we've got thr�� options, pretending you've got the multi wast�
haul�r system but if's real[y playing out as a single hauler. !f you look at #his char�,
Forest Lake, being th� exception but I don't know how compara#ive they are b�cause I
feel they are more rural and smalf buf the single haul�rs are way cheaper. Hastings is
half. If we're going ta be a sing[� hauler, the fact they are using fhe same company, le#'s
just convert to single hauler and cuf aur rates in haff. Let's have reaf competition.
W�'re not given th� benefit of fihe bargain of the competition and we're not getting,
basically the price confrols af the single haul, we're kind a� stuck in the midd(�, I hate
seeing this repork and s�eing Cottage Grove being the out wire, we're never the
cheapesfi, never the best deal, we're afways just an the outside of being th� worsfi deal.
[fi's been nine years, with all due respecfi ko staff, I wi(I recornmend fid the Council ta
strong[y consider looking at single hauler b�fore adding another hauler and get some
more data. f would make a motion fihat we would nat adopt s#aff recommendation and
recommend thafi the staff continue #o gather data bas�d on some af the data
commissiorrers have had about specific wear and tear on the roads because I think
mare data will make it easier for Mr. Thiede and his colieagues to ma[ce a good
decisian, but I would recommend they look at it. ['m not really leaning ona way or the
other, f think Counci! needs to look at it. These numbers are very interesting. I'm
incl`rneci ta lean single haufer actually, but I think there's more data fhafi 1 would like to
knaw. l.ong story shor�."
MOTION MADE BY COMtUIISStON VICE CHAIR E�{VEAN: MR. CHAIR, I WOULD
MOVE THAT THIS COMMfSSI�N REJEGT STAFF'S REC�MMENDATION AND
R�COMMEND THIS BE MOVEp ON TO CQUNCIL FOR FURTH�R
CONS(DERATION NOT 1NCONSISTENT VIlITH THE REPURTS AND COMMENTS
MA�E. S�C�NDED BY MATTHEIN FORSHEE. CVIOTION CARRIED THREE VOTES
TO Two.
Discussion:
Jeff Podoll sfat�d, "Michael, I tend fio agree with you that a single hauler is what we've
got now for all practical purposes. Buf the additional cosf would be borne by having a
single hauler fram what staff has told us befiare. If w� are gaing ta take an the billing and
all that, i# would be more expense incurr�d by the City. What that magic number is,
again I don't know, That's fi�ured into the rafe but 1'm guessing it �robably isn't, it's what
the cantract is for. Vlle should, if possible, find out wha� kind af cast is incurred by the
City far implemenfiirtg this and if th�f's a good deal or not".
Commission Ghair Jurg�ns asked, "Adam do you know in the informafiion you provided,
for the cities fhat have single haulers, do thes� rates include charges, that the City adds
Public Works Commission
September 15, 2p� 3— Page 9
onto the bill to cover those costs and are those ref[eGfied in those numbers?" Adam
responded that fihe numbers shawn are the final cost to r�siden#s. "From my knowledge,
I do not believe that any of these cites fake on the billing th�mselves. "i believe that
they are all cantracted through the hauler th�mselues. The cities don't wanfi to deal with
the billing so they contracted that in the price with the haulers." Tony s#at�d, "So we
can'fi make a det�rminatian today, that would be a decision down fihe road that may or
may not include bilfing. Th�re's a rnotion on the table then, is to reject the s#aff
recommendation." Ec[man responded, "[ respectfully reject the staff recommendation
and recommend th� Council explore th� question af sing[e hauier or additiona[ hauler,
not incansistent with fhis r�por�. And 1 also encaurage fihem to continue to have sfiaff
gen�rate more data so they can make an informed decision".
Tony Jurgens stat�d, "My comm�nts ar.e: it looks like, first of all, 1[ike having a chaice
sven if it's a choice between twa. To save $2.A�2 per month to nofi have the choice
between the haulers fhat w� have...l like having the choice, On the other hand, f don't
wanfi seven trucks, seven different haulers potenfial(y up to three trucks each driving
down my street at 6.00 in the morning wh�n ( haue my window open firy[ng to sleep. I
don't know th� exact impact on the roads, but common sense tells me more trucks,
more impact, what�ver fihat might be, Alsa in looking at the da�a, in arder to get the
lawest rates, ifi appears we need fio have the single haul or a(ot of competitian. Sd,
those are my commenfis, that's my feeling. My comment is thafi if somebody wants to
hand me $60 do(lars a year, I'll take it, but I don't know how much time I'll worry about
spending $5 bucks a month, Naw, that's just rne and ther� a lot of citizens and you
multi�ly that out and that's a(ot of money. Persona[ly, as a citizep, it's not a ton of
money. Again, Commissioner Edman, if you want to fo give me $&0 bucks, 1'll #ake it."
"I have no way of knowing this,", stated �dman, "But l suspec# ther�'s a percentage, a
large percentage of people withoufi a hauler, that are making decisions how fia get rid of
fh�ir garbage one� way or another." Edman further said, "Mr. Chair, for the record, I'd
like to state it's not my infient c�r objecfion #o reopen this up to a half dozen or ten
haulers. 1 don'# think that's necessary. Samething to move us from the outside highesfi
n«mber would b� fine and dandy. Tony asked, "Ev�n if you add ona, what is th�
process for doing that?" "That's Mr. Thiede's job", sfated Edman. "Onee the Council
has kind of got their head around it, they could bring ifi back �� us for some feedback on
the two different opfiions that they com� up wi�h so, affordable optians they come up
with more de�ined agenda and ro[e in process and we could give fihem our opinion an
that. I know a lot more about garbage hauling today than I did on Thursday".
Commission Chair Jurgens asked if Caunci[ Member Thiede hact any additional
questions, camments or opinions. Thied� res�onded, "Obviously, wh�ther we have
exact specifics, we know when we reduce the amo,unt of trucks an fhe road, fhe better,
so that would actuafly suggest that th� fewer haulers we ga with, fhe better. But then at
the sam� time, fihe competition is on fihe other part of the axis. We definitely wanfi fio be
Public Works Commission
September 16, 2013 -� Page 10
able to get the best value for the residents and usually a higher level of competition
does alfow that. What we do need to find out is where is fihat point, wher� does if, in
fact, represent the besf value to fhe resid�nts bofh in avaidance of cost, that we might
}�ave in terms of the raads and differ�nt things, bufi obviausly there is a cost to #heir
monthly budget and so farth. 1 fihink it's something that w� can talk about, w� can fake
a look at it and firy to maybe tak� some of the dafa anc[ kind of massage it a little bit and
s�e ifi we can come up with some sort of value or measurement that tries to take in all
fhose different factors. But I think you've had som� pretty good discussions"
Tony asked, "Les do you have anything you want ta add?" Les respanded, "No f don't.
V1le'll take your suggesfion and present it to the City Counci( probably in a workshop
session and let them decide as to what direction they would [ike us to take or whafi �hey
wanf the Commission to do".
Jurgens added, "Part of it is competition, but more sa, it's just choice. 1'v� had the same
hauler far almosfi 21 years �ut I know if they didn't provide the service f wanted, at (east
I have a choic�, i could go somewhere else. That's the thing with the single haul. !t
might be cheaper, but that choice is taken away."
Adam Moshier was #hanked for his presentation.
N[ichael Edman had anofiher comment, "I would (ike to somehow g�t more data on the
roads if fihere's a science involved fihere, get some engineer's specs if possible and
fina(fy, [ have T�nnis Brothers Sanitation [ think they've done a greafi job. I'm not
complaining. 1 am not pissed off because 1 am paying too much. Th�y piGk up my
garbage on time, reliably, so I think it's fair to fhe largest hauler in town, who looks like
they are pres�nt based on their orange shirts. ff we do move to singl� hauler, I i�ope
they would be a strong candidat�: for it and I think it's only fair to say that there's not a
lack of pleasure in the service, i#'s just the alarming nature of fihe numbers. But
personal[y I don't have any problem with my garbage pravider, 50 cents a month isn't
going to move the dial and having a choice for 21 years, that kind of speaks ta the
service. It's fair to have that on #he recard l think."
Podoll stated, "1 think on� of the things that would help is, Commissian Member Edman
brought up before is to get some kind of basis, like an a norm�l black, how many car
trips a day are there are, Ifi there are 300, the garbage truck is puffing 1,000, that's, you
know, 4 times as many as you normally got there, but iike you said, on 80 S#reefi where
you got 30,OQ0, that's is 1 percent, So I think that would probably have some bearing
too." Burshten responded "We have a Iot af thafi data available. We`re just doing traffic
counts righ# now as a matter af fact, roads, routes, collector streets, arterial str�ets, we
will [ook at fih�fi. We don't hav� a lofi of data on just residential, we can find that out".
Public Works Commission
September '[6, 2013 — Page 91
6. OLD BUSCNESS
A. �ollow up on Water Tower RehabiEitation Process
L.es Burshten stated �
some diff�rent opfiions
ja'tning us from SEH
propasal.
couple of ineetings ago; information was presenfied regarding
as far as water tnwer maintenance. "We have a representa#ive
tonight if there are any questians regarding this particu(ar
Public Works Supervisor Harry Taylor stat�d, "Mr. Chairman, staff, along with our
engin�ering cansulfianfi, have reviewed other contracts. There's fh� traditional bidding
process and design build, They both have their pras and cons. "I�' you look over to our
char�s here, at the end, the 1 million tank with a 10 year warranty comes in at
$793,500.00. That's a significant savings when you consider a 10 year warranty.
When you loak at the traditional bid method, those numbers are up fihere and fih�se are
fhe lowest numbers. When you loaK at St. Paul Park, they have one that's $� .5 million
plus. These are al! fluted columns which are very familiar to the 1 million fhaf we
visited togefiher last summer. So, l guess what we are se�mg is #he real numbers with
the design build and fhe d�sign build gives us that 90 year warranty. 1Ne also talked
with Jason Sprague of SEH abaut the traditional bid design anc! adding the warranty
and most places, we found wauld on[y go up to a five years on the warranty, but yo� are
goir►g to pay an additional cost. This traditional bid, plus those engineering services,
plus th� fact you would probably have to still hire a company like SEH to come in fio
cover that warranty. Our attorneys may have to also gef involved. Our F'inance Director
and our City Engineer both were very positive r�n fhis methad and recommend it. Staff
was unanimous on recommending we go with fhe design build on both ofi these tanks at
this point, Jason is here ta answer some questions if you have any."
Jurgens stated, "On the chart we're (ooking at, it says: not included in bid: inspecfiians,
specs, engineering costs, but on fhe far right columns it says, included in the bid price
above, so what's not included? Telf us a litti� more abaut that."
Les stated, "That includes all fihe above, it includes legal, inspection, as you work
thraugh the process it daes not include fihe y�arly maintenance of the towers
thems�lv�s. The only thing 1 wanted to add is that when you loak at fhese numbers
and when we firsf came forward with this, 1 personally was a little bit s{ceptical as fhis is
a different cancept. This concept is aut there and a number af communities are doing
this, very similar to what we are suggesting. What we didn't have was numbers, bufi
now we have the numbers, reai numbers, one from 6/20/93 and another ane firom
Vadnais Heights dated 2/1/2012 and another one in Arden Hills 4/16/2013, This 90
year warranty is kind o� a new fhing and it's something, I b�lieve, we as a City need to
Public Warics Commiss�on
September 16, 2013 -� Page 12
look at seriously becaus� we have a tower that failed at abouf 12 years, the one fihat
you folks were able to look at and thafi's not acceptable in my world, 1 just dan't think we
can allow that to hap�en. What this daes for us is, and they can #aIk about fhis, if there
is a failure and it has ta be repaired, it's guaranteed it'll be repaired. You get the
contractor that seems fo be a goad one. Now that doesn't mean there aren't a lof of
good contractors out there but yau kmd of eliminate going through the [ow bid process
and not necessarily knowing what you are geffiing sa [, it's my p�rsonal opinion, at the
stafF [evel we laoked at this thing and now we ar� in agreement that yes, the numb�rs
are there. We didn't have hard numb�rs befare; rnre didn't have anything to compare this
fio. When you loak af this for the warranty particularly, but also the cantractor tha� yau
wouid be getting, we fieel very comforkable with that. V11e think it's a soiid �rnposal, w�
think it's a good proposaL When you loak at the overall picture, this includes
euerything. The numbers that you see for the 10 year warranty includes the specs; the
insp�ction, the follow up, the project manag�ment and the warranty for 10 years, 1 do
nafi believe we'll get any better numbers based on the bidding process,"
Tony Jurgens add�d, "I know when we had the presentation fram SEH a couple o�
months ago, I personally fhought [t made a lot of sense, 1 think #hat was the gen�ral
consensus if ( remember correctly, from the other commissioners, but then af a follow
up meeting, it was unlcnown if those numbers ware competitiv� or nofi. The numbers
that were in fhe bid fior comparison purposes were just numbers, we didn't know if that
was a gaod number or a bad number. Obviously, #hat would have an impact on what
made the most sense to us and we talked about maybe going out for bid, and 1 think it
was Commissioner �dman that suggested what about St, Paul Park? We probabfy nave
some data on sbme similar wafier towers and so that's what you did. Based on fhis, I
would like to hear what questions people have, but I guess this is pretty gaod from my
perspective. Does anyone else have any questians for Mr. Sprague or Les7"
Edman stated he had a couple of questions. "The numbers are all av�r the map, and it
saunds like you can't make heads or tails of why either. You've got a company fihat is
double the low bid. 1 can't understand why in June, you can do the water tower in St.
Paul' Park, som�wher� 50,000 gallons, for $976,000, in Apri1 0� the same year, a(arg�r
flu�ed column fank you can do far $833,000 in Arden Hills. What is possibly different?"
1..es sfat�d, "Jason has an opinion, he's shaking his head yes. I do have an opinion c�n
that fioo".
J�son Sprague stated, "Without oversimplifying it, certain fimes ofi the year, different
contractors are going f� have differenfi workloads and much like your road proj�cts,
some af them bid a�gressively, some are going to say, you know, we're go�ng to floaf a
high bid because we hav� a full c(ocket of wark �nd if we get the work, gr�at, it'll be
profitable, But at the same tim�, it all depends on what work they have on their dock�t
at �he time, lnterestingEy, the Classic Protecti�e Goatings, like Mr. Bursht�n mentioned,
they`re dang St. Paul Park and the Arden Hills tank that helped us in terms of our data
Public VVorks Cammission
September 16, 2�13 — Page 'i3
gathering being able to get the numbers from those bid #ables, but then you look at
individual bid tabs, yes, #hey are across the map and from what we've seen in our
experience, that's just a simple function of how busy they are."
Les stated, "A lot of fiime what we see is, the time of the year you bid projects out, fiha�
may have some impact on some typ�s af proJects. We see that mainly with road
canstruction. When there's some big variances on som� of these bids and if somebady
submits the higher number, usuaIly what happens is they just throw a number in there.
They may not need th� work or want the wark at thafi �irne but if they get the work th�n
they go aut, hire and get mare equipment. During c�rtain timas ofi the year, a bid is just
fihrown together. They may say, we don't rea(ly want the work, but if we get the worlc,
we'll make it work. We may have to buy additional equipmenf to do these things, hire
additiona! �mployees. Thafi happens sometimes too, but obviously when you see fihe
$700,000 difference in a bid package, some red fla�s cpme up when you see that." .
Edman said, "You mentioned attorney's fees, and some other fees, in the not inciuded
section. How abaut fhe City's fees ta have aur attorney review fihe c(c�cumen�s, how is
that included in the warranty price? l guess whaf 1'm [ooking for are some of the things
you [isted �n #hat category seem to be impossible fio be included in the warranty. Les
stated the only thing that woufd not be included is the review from the atforney. The
nurnbers we were giv�n from the afher cammunities, my undersfanding is they included
those numbers. Now, yau are going to ask me what are attorney's fees going to be? I
don't know."
"lt wouldn't be an open bidding climate", said Jason Sprague. "You dan'fi have to have
a bid. This is a lit#fe bit of a differenfi animal than we talked about in the pri�r meeting so
some of those costs don't compiet�ly go away. l'm gaing fio compare it to a road
project, a project thafi peap[e are familiar with, but there's, based an fihe pre�arafiion of
bid documents, there ends up being a cer#ain percentage of what the construction cost
is, in this case, the rehabilitation cost and then there's an inspection thaf goes along
with working with the contract that is a typical percentage of consfiruction casfi. At
least it's a guideline and that can vary anywhere befween six and �ight percent for a bid
package on the front end of that. If it's a contractor thafi throws a low bid that maybe
they have a track re�ord tha# isn't completely spotless, then you're going to be pushing
fihat number up a littie bit, same as a road project."
Edman said, "Sa fhe $833,000.00 is paid #or th� one million gallor� tank. Pay that and
�he warranty in case it fiails, then fihat's it. What cost would that have in fiv� years or
ten years? Do you have ta do anything to thafi w�fier fiower?"
Les sated, "Yes, 1 don't {cnow wh�fi exaatly other cities do but th�r� are casts associated
every year also that we do wheth�r it's a float dawn or whether it's to inspect the tank.
There are costs throughaut the years as you go, but, the thing that is differenfi is, and
Public Works Commissian
September �6, 2013 — Page 14
these numbers are relativ�ly close to what we spend. You know, when you go to any
store and buy something and they are always trying to sell you an extended warranty.
Sometimes yau look at #hat and yoEr think, well maybe, why would I do that? You can
buy warranties on cars, televisions and phones. I wasn't sald on this initialfy. l do fhink
that fihe extend�d warranty is v�ry important in this situation because these numbers
are so big. And 1 think you've got two things here: You've got a company, a consulfing
firm, that's been around for a long, long time tha�'s very repufiable fhat do�s a lot of this
typ� af work plus other wark, They've got a contractor that we feeI, we've worked with
a coupi� times in the past fihat we feel very comfartabl� with. How often do you get that?
Haw often do you have that opporkunity when the engineering firm is good and yau think
the contractor is good. And you eliminate the fact you have to �o out and tak� a law
bic{ becaus� sametimes low bids don't work out. If the job isn'fi done properly, you have
a problem and fhat's.kind of what I'm saying when f see West Draw, ft a guy knows he
is going to be on the hook fior 10 y�ars, don't you think that they might go ou# of #h�ir
way to maEce sure they are going to provide a quality product so they dan't have ta come
back? I think it's just a good guarantee. And 1 don't know how you could not at least
cansider this."
"We[l," stated Tony, "The one thing yott mentioned, the cantractor is th�n more likely to
r�al[y make sure ifi's done right, knowing they are on the hook. The fact we had
accelerated deterioration on the W�st Draw Tow�r, wifih annual inspecfiions and regular
maintenance, they are going to spot fha# more quickly and sooner and may be able to
do somefihing about it, Their eyes are going to be on it ar�d will be able ta spot the sfiuff."
Edman stated it's the "Eye on the ball premise. I tend fo agree with you, bufi let me do
my job and pick ifi apart. When you �uy a warranty for a telephane or TV, thafi`s how
they make all their money. They make a ton of money aff warranties because th�y are
selling you a pr�duc� that is, in their estimation, extremely unlikely fo need senrices and
warranty. We are paying, from my estimation, about a hundred thousand dollars
premium for that warranty. And the question is, is it worth it? And it's worth it if
somefhing happens. And, if nothing happens, so we hav� to think about our risk
aversian here, roll of the dice, can we interna[ize fhat risk factor7 Is a hundred
fihousand dollars spent taday saving us $500,000 ten years from now? [s spending a
hundred thousand dollars thafi we nev�r ne��ed to spend going to be ruinaus for th�
City in fihe future? Prabably not, but 1 still think you need to talk through that. One
question I have, may know fhe answer, Can you take $'i00,00a dollars and or half of
that to buy a warranty fram someone else? Gan f buy insurance to cover some sort of
defect that is nat already covered by our insurar�ce? Just like when yau have a ear that
fails, you overcompensate and buy fihe extended warranty. I want to make sure we are
not daing thafi. Hopefully, this will make your job easier or your predecessor's job easi�r,
eight years firom now if somefihing happ�ns. I think we can't ignore that fihe easy
decision is spend a liftle bit more money and then i don'fi hav� to worry abaut it."
Public Works Commission
Sept�mber 16, 2013 — Page '!5
Tony stated "I appreciate yaur conc�rn. I don't have any other questions. What I would
like from the Commi�sion is someone wi[ling to make a motion."
MOTION MADE BY MICHAEL EDIVIAN THAT THIS C4MMiSSION ACCEPT ANO
AD�PT STAFF'S RECOMMENDATfON AND ENC�URAGE COUNCIL TO
SUPPURT, Tt3 THE �XTENT THAT'S REQUIRED AND NECESSARY, BOTH
WATER TANK MAIN7'ENANCE S�RV�CES, S�CO�DED BY �111,ATTHEW FOR.SHEE.
11lIOTIqN WA5 UNANIMOUSLY CARRIED.
Jason S�rague was thanked for attending tonight's meeting.
7. PUBL[C WORKS UPDAT�
Les Burshten stated:
p The Public Works Open House will be on Thursday, September 19 from 3:00 to
7:00 pm. "UVe encourage everyone to atfend, there's something for everyone."
o The Public Warks Monthly Update Newsletter was included in the meeting
packet. (f anyane needs any additianal informafion, it can be provided.
• On Monday, September 23 there will be a walk through afi the Wal�Mart
Construction Sifie. A[1 Commission Members are encauraged to attend. To
RSVP, please contact Kafhy Dennis of the Planning Departmenfi.
8, ENGIN��F�'S REPORT
None.
9. C1TY COUNCIL UPDATE
Council M�mber pave Thied� stated:
o On August 14�" Council appro�ed LeVander, Gil[en and Miller for the City's legal
S�l"VIC�S.
• Southeast Towing was approved for the City's towing and impound services
• On September 4 an ordinance was passed amending the City's fees for water
meters
• The crash attenuator purchase was approved
• R�so)utions were adopted fiar the cosfi, public hearing and ordering preparation of
the assessments for the Pav�ment Managemenfi Project.
Commission Member Jeff Podo[! asked if the Counci[ is considermg siphoning any of
the money from the wat�r tower pamting fund to pay for parics, Thiede responded,
"Yes". Podafl asked, "Since we've had numerous deve[opers come in and start building,
Public llltorks Comrnissian
September 16, 2013 — Page 16
aren't the park decficafiion fees, over a thousand dof[ars per lot, going to cover same of
that?" 7hiede respond�d, "Well, they are going to cover differ�nt things. At this poinf,
in terms of looking at the differenf funds and so forth, we've actualty started to do a lofi
betfier job of actualfy looking at greater visibility of fun�s, sa if you went and loo[ced now,
each of the different #'unds that has a projection, graph, shows fhe d�sired balance af
those funds and what is projected: increase, decrease, things like that and so furfiher
laakin� at that, ifi would �nd it was determined thafi fihose revenues fram the tow�rs
would probably work best in th� park funds and have same greater ff�xibility. You do
have some flexibility on some of those funds so it was the type of deal that sta�f made a
case for and we all agreed was OK." Edman asked, "Why not just the general fund?
Those arer�'f dedicated funds." Thiede responded, "We #alked about that, and the
discussion was that ifi's maybe better to, even if yau can move some of it around, better
to kind of a have a pfan p�r se, well, I�t's kind af put it in these places, kind of how we
p[anned to use it, but given circumstances fhat might justify moving it around, we move
them around, you're right. Why don't yau put it all in one big kitty and we'll usa it where
we can? But, it's a little better to have that planned."
There was a question #hat the Planning Commission had dealt with regarding the vacant
lofi at Had[ey and 80 Edman asfced "1s there anything happening with that vacanfi lot,
cafty corner to the Holiday Stat�on and G Wil) I�iquors?" Thi�de respanded, "Yeah, I
don't know if we can say that yet so, there is somefhing that is going to happen on
Had[ey and 80��' by Presbyfierian Homes, bufi we can't reaAy disclose thafi ta the public
yet.
"How far are they cutting that down the hill?" (by Goodwill}, asked Edman. Thiede
responded "lt's actual[y going to come down a fair amount, a good five feet or sc�",
stated Thiede. �dman asked, "Why would they wanf fio build there? We've gvt a(ot
af empty space, w� have �xisting buildings," Thiede replisd, "In the end, well, if
snmeone is coming in and if it meets al[ the requirements, things like that, and that's
where they want ta put it, that's how they wanfi do it, you knaw it's kind of like, �K.
You hear some good things you h�ar some bad #hings. in gen�ral, Goodwill has been
changing its operation. There are a(of of people I talk fo that say Goodwill has some of
these overruns and sa fihey are actually able fio offer some new merchandis� at low�r
prices, things like that, to a larg� extent. I think that helps the people that have a little
fiougher time making a go of it so I think it's going fo have a good impact and fhings like
that and pravide some gaod things. Let's keep our fingers cross�d. Again, the big
concern is no matt�r what kind ofi business it is, w� want to make sure they get
themselves positianed to succeed."
Les stated, "1 just wanted to give you a real quick update on the m�ter replacement
program. ]t's the first year of � three year project and pofenfiafly a five year mefer
replacement program throughout the City and we're just finishing up fih� fiirst go�raund
Public Warks Commission
September � 6, 20� 3-- Page 17
a�d in my opinion, it was pretty successful. We only have a handful left to be
completed."
Utility For�man Rick Alt sfated, "Mr. Chair, memb�rs of fhis Commissifln. This year we
sfarted with roughly 1,834 houses that w� targeted for replacement. As of Monday,
actually early fiaday, there were only 59 homes that were not r�sponsive to I�tters,
muftiple I�tters that started back lasfi monfih of which 12 of those were found to be
vacant homes. That brought it down to 39 hames that we went oufi fio tag fioda�r and just
fio remind fihem if they didn't respond if a few days, #heir water is going to be terminated.
O� fihe 39, 11 appointments came right away leavmg us about 25 Ieft. We're getting
down there, we did have 2 refusals buf as of today, we ar� waiting on 25 hames wifih na
r�sponses. Righf now, we targeted the east side of Jamaica for the aging met�rs and
we will continue to loak at the aging m�ters."
10. COMMISSIt)N COMMENTS AND REQUESTS
Commission Member Smith stated, "f apologize, Council Member Thiede. 1 didn't get
th� gues�ion in when if was your turn. The Wint�r Parkmg Ban the Commission
recommended to the Cauncil, Where does t�at stand?" Thiede responded, "It's being
reviewed by Public Safety now and hasn't yet reached the Council."
Michael Edman stat�d, "Mr. Chair, { have two Gomments, You've got to get these
pac{cets to us saoner than Friday morning. E spent a lat of time reading af[ fihis stufF and
I had all #hese questions. There's sfiufF I wanted fo do more research on. 1 had mor�
guestions, maybe you don't want me to as{< more quesfiions. [t's really thorough, a
really good job bufi yau have to gef those to us sooner than a Friday mornir�g e�-mail.
Burshten responded, "We'll try to da a better job. We try to gef them out Wednesday or
Thursday, we`JI do our best." Edman continued to state, "�ne item on fihe agenda was
pulled the �'riday befiore, it appar�ntly was partia[ and almost don�, but not quit� ready. 1
thought this would be the ane time w� gofi ifi in advance and not getting if as late as we
always da. I senf ouf an email. f was pretty annoyed".
Tony Jurgens stat�d, "In priar months, I have a canversation wikh Les leading up to the
meeting, what's going to be on the agenda, etc. The last twa monfihs we moved that up,
we w�re meefing on Thursday or Friday and so now we've moved that u� a we�k sa if
there's anything, recammendations fihat f gefi firom one af you or recommendations I
have to add, to the agenda, they ha�e mare time to respond. So it's certainly plausible
fo finish that up and gefi the information aut sooner.°Edman added, "Now that we`re
getting everything transmitted elecfironicaf[y, if we have some of the stuff, send it early
and say more to follow."
Public Works Commis�ion
Sept�mber 16, 2013 — Page 18
'I'[. A�JOURNMENT
Motian to adjourn was made by Matthew Forshee, seconded by IUlichae[ S�ni#h.
Motion was unanimausly carri�d. Meeting adjourned at 8:33 pm.
Respectfully submitted,
'PGI�Y�C�R .StOYbl�i